Dr Melanie Joy Plant Proof Podcast Carnism

Vegans…we need to talk with Psychologist Melanie Joy

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In Episode 112 I sit down with Harvard-educated Psychologist and best selling author Melanie Joy to discuss how we form our beliefs about food and how vegans can have healthier, more productive, conversations with non-vegans. An episode that I believe will be highly instructive regardless of the diet that you follow.
Dr Melanie Joy Plant Proof Podcast Carnism

In this episode we cover:

  • Melanie’s personal journey to studying Psychology at Harvard and writing her award winning book “Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism”
  • Why our food choices matter
  • The carnism ideaology
  • Carnistic defense systems and the three N’s: ‘Normal, Natural and Necessary
  • Effective vegan advocacy: how to communicate better as a vegan
  • Shame vs guilt
  • The idea of thinking about process vs content when communicating with someone who holds a different opinion to you
  • Why the debate format sets us up to fail
  • How you can be a part of the solution
  • What a ‘vegan ally’ is
  • The idea of watering the right seeds
  • and much more
While my episodes usually focus on nutrition science I found this exchange fascinating and believe many of the learnings hold true for our communication in general, whether that be related to food choices and the exploitation of animals or not. My plan is to extend this into a 3-4 part series, with Melanie to return and another high profile vegan activist in the coming months so we can continue exploring this topic together.


The 3 minute video on Carnism created by Melanie and her team Beyond Carnism that I referred to in this conversation
Connect with Melanie on Instagram @beyondcarnism
Melanie’s Book Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism, 10th Anniversary Edition
The Vegan Matrix – another book written by Melanie exploring what she believes is a serious problem with the vegan movement: unexamined privilege.
Melanie’s 2015 TedX Talk Toward Rational, Authentic Food Choices
Related episodes: I have done three episodes with animal activists to better understand the way they see the world and why they are so passionate about sharing their message.  These are episodes with James Aspey, James Aspey and Carly Taylor, and Seb Alex.

My Book:

My book is coming out early 2021 published with Penguin – I cannot wait to share with you. In the lead up the launch I am going to share information about the title, cover, ways to win a copy, live event dates, free e-books etc. Register your email here so I can keep you up to date.

Where to listen:

Currently, the Plant Proof podcast can be listened to on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify or Stitcher, If you listen on iTunes be sure to hit ‘subscribe’ or ‘follow’ on Spotify so you are instantly notified when I release new episodes each week.
Hope you enjoy the episode,

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